Patrick THÉVENIN (Trax Magazine): So, good evening Anatoly, could you tell us a bit about who you are, how long you've been involved in techno, and what exactly you do?
Anatoly IVANOV (Kvadrat director): I'm a genius, [laughs]... I've been working in the visual arts for 20 years. I've been into techno since 1995, so, last century. I'm based in Paris, Geneva, Moscow, LA, and New York.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Wow!
Anatoly IVANOV: So I basically live on a plane, just like in the movie.
Patrick THÉVENIN: And why are you into techno?
Anatoly IVANOV: Actually, it was completely by chance. Suddenly, an independent FM radio station opened up after the fall of the USSR in Moscow, so in 1995. And I just switched the FM receiver to 106,8 and there was some very strange music. Before that, I did classical music. I studied piano, music theory, composition. Then all of a sudden, I hear some really, really weird stuff. And since then, I've mostly been listening to electronic music. And I work with it.
Patrick THÉVENIN: And you make films?
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, I'm a filmmaker who uses a lot of electronic music that we listen to.
Patrick THÉVENIN: How did the idea for this film come about? How did it develop?
Anatoly IVANOV: It didn't really develop, it came very quickly because I had made a 25-minute medium-length film about Hong Kong, for the Hong Kong film industry. And when they saw it, they said, "Do you have a slightly longer, more challenging, and interesting project?" And I had a day to come up with an idea. And since it's a subject I've known very well for years and years, and I always thought there was a lack of information on the topic. Meaning, it's either "Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll" like "Berlin Calling"... Where you see DJs getting wasted, and it doesn't really match the majority of DJs. Or there are films like Deutsche Telekom Electronic Beats TV where the DJs are all "Hey, did you see me? I'm so great! I'm the best of the best!" And there's nothing really in between. Nothing real, nothing well-documented. There's actually a journalistic void. And since I am, among other things, a journalist, I thought, "We need to fill the gap."
Patrick THÉVENIN: How did you choose the DJ? With your DJ, it seems like he fits the idea of what you wanted to show, like he's perfect for...
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, well, let's say, it's part of my job as a director to find the perfect cast. I wanted an average DJ. Meaning, not a rock star like Richie Hawtin who can afford to do crazy stuff. Nor a complete beginner who discovers Ableton Live and is like, wow, I can download an mp3. Initially, the idea was to make a film about several DJs. About ten, all part of DeepMix.ru, at the time, it was in 2011. And then, this web radio station collapsed during the film's development. So simply, it was a political situation that disintegrated during the film's period. The DJ in the film was the one who remained from the whole group.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Did the shoot take a long time?
Anatoly IVANOV: Let's say, in terms of the film's development... I had the idea in February 2011. I pitched it, meaning, I told the DJ about it at my place in Paris. He was just passing through, and he immediately said "yes," under certain conditions. The number one condition was not to interfere with his DJing process. Meaning, I wouldn't say "No! Stop! Put on another vinyl! Yes, change, stand more to the left, to the right..." during his work. And he said: "No, I want to do my job. You figure out what you need to do, but during the scenes, I don't want to be disturbed. I don't want to know what's happening in terms of cinema."
Patrick THÉVENIN: In fact, there was a moment in one scene where you followed him, because you mentioned at the end of the video, you followed the DJ, you responded to him. Was there a scene that you constructed?
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, in fact, it's a classic film; there's a script first, but since it's a documentary, the dialogue isn't scripted. We create more of a guide towards where we want to go. The places we'll shoot, the general timeframe, the duration, the locations. It's much more precise than fiction, where every little word is pre-written in advance. However, after I had the idea, I wrote the script, and we were already shooting in July-August 2011, and we shot for 11 months. Post-production took 1 year. So, in total, 2 and a half years to achieve what you just saw.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Why did you choose not to have commentary, no dialogue, no real interaction with the deep world? It feels like someone in a bubble of solitude. Did you emphasize that effect or…?
Anatoly IVANOV: No, he's really like that in his bubble. Let's say, the idea was... Well. In cinema, there's a huge focus on the story. You have to tell a story; you absolutely have to tell a story. And I think there aren't enough films that make you feel an experience. For me, the main goal was to make the people watching the film feel like they were inside the main character. And the guy, when he travels, he's all alone, and he doesn't talk to himself. He's not crazy. He's not saying out loud: "I'm fed up, I want to sleep!" He's silent. So, there's no real dialogue, no monologue, like in "Fight Club" where the guy is really nuts.
Patrick THÉVENIN: And is that why you focused on scenes outside the clubs? Like airports, taxis...
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, also. Let's say, when I started writing, well, I had already worked with DJs as a photographer, as a journalist, and as a promoter. And what interested me is that the performance in the club is just a tiny part, I don't know, it's 5% maximum. The rest is sorting vinyl, managing contacts, and then flights, taxis, hotels, non-stop, non-stop. Technically, if we had done the proper proportion, there aren't enough planes in the film. Which is, well, even for me... I followed him in real-time, and I found those nights completely inhumane. I had a headache.
Patrick THÉVENIN: And it's funny, the first thing the guy does when he gets home is that he leaves again.
Anatoly IVANOV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it...
Patrick THÉVENIN: I was wondering at one point if he's trying to prepare the next loop for the next day, because it's kind of like a loop, really.
Anatoly IVANOV: He's always in a loop. And actually, from the beginning, the film is called Kvadrat, which in Russian is, quadra from the Latin square. It means he's going around in circles, in squares, actually. He's always... It's a loop, like in techno, it continues, it continues. He's always got his iPhone, like "Ah! I've got a new arrival on Decks.de, on Juno. And I tell him: "But don't you want to take 10 minutes just to rest?" "No, no, no, I need to order quickly, or it'll be gone..."
Patrick THÉVENIN: Well, by following him like that, didn't you feel that it might be a bit monotonous, like, "Oh my God, it's tedious!"
Anatoly IVANOV: Well, let's say, for me as a director, it already poses a problem for the film because in a movie, or a play, generally, there's character development, the arc of the film, a resolution of the Great Conflict, movement, a whole bunch of stuff... And there's none of that in his life. I mean, we see the conflict, it's just there, meaning it's a lifestyle, not very humane, I'd say, not very healthy, but the guy doesn't manage to solve it, or improve it, or fight, let's say, the enemy, The Bad Guy. So, let's say... I then have my own... I have my own opinions about this profession. But the idea was more to let the viewers form their own opinions, their own interpretations.
Patrick THÉVENIN: What are people's reactions? Because I've seen it's in English, it's in Russian, it's in French, it's accessible on the web...
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, the reactions are completely polarized. That is to say, there are either people who hate it — they send me emails, audio messages, "it's unwatchable, it's... too long, it's boring, etc." Or people love it. They say it's meditative, it's super beautiful, the music is great, I want to be a DJ after seeing it. The guy's a hero who changes the scene completely. He only has a mattress at home, he doesn't have a girl, he doesn't snort coke, and he keeps going... really, there are things... But there's nothing in the middle. When you go to IMDb, the ratings are either 1 out of 10 or 10 out of 10. And there's nothing in between.
Patrick THÉVENIN: It's... it's unique, almost contemplative, like Ken Loach would tell it, but the life of a DJ...
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, exactly! Ken Loach, I really like his way of working. And the last Ken Loach film I saw at Cannes, I think it was more of a documentary than a fiction film, his "I, Daniel Blake." Similarly, there isn't really any dialogue, we see reality as it is. Let's say, the film works in the sense that the DJ plays, and then there are people who come to see him in the clubs saying, "Thank you, I was thinking of becoming a DJ, I saw the film, and I changed my mind, I don't want to be a DJ anymore. Now I know what it's really like." And there are others who say: "Listen, I had some doubts about whether I would get into it, and I saw it, and I thought fuck man, this is exactly what I want to do!" But there's nothing in between.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Was it kind of your idea to make an antithesis to "Berlin Calling" with all the clichés about the DJ profession?
Anatoly IVANOV: Let's say, when you're in auteur cinema, you're in the fight against clichés. It's kind of the number one problem with sequels, with challenges that remind you of time. Because actually, clichés automatically appear from a lack of knowledge about the subject. Meaning a director reads a script on a subject he doesn't know at all, and he thinks, grosso modo "This, this is going to be this. And that — that." Whereas for me, it's a subject I've experienced myself. So it was quite easy for me to avoid the classic clichés.
Patrick THÉVENIN: And the DJs who have seen the film, what do they say about it?
Anatoly IVANOV: It's pretty mind-blowing, they say they're scared! When they watch the film, their hair stands on end because they see themselves. They say, "That's really me, when I'm surrounded by people I don't know, they don't speak English, they come from nowhere, it's... it's very close!" That was one of the challenges.
Audience: I have a question that might not relate to the film at all, but I wanted to know what you think of DJs who aren't musicians?
Anatoly IVANOV: What do I think of DJs? Well, one, I think it's very important to...
Audience: They don't play a musical instrument.
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, yes, absolutely, it's important to distinguish between a composer, a musician who plays the violin, guitar, piano, etc., and a DJ. For me, this is my opinion, I think the most important role of the DJ is that of a curator. That is to say, someone who chooses what will be played, when, for whom, and in what order. It's like in a gallery, someone who selects one artist, then another artist, then another artist. Just mixing one vinyl after another vinyl, as long as it's not turntablism, honestly, it's not very hard to do beat-matching. Especially now, there are plenty of people playing with Ableton, Traktor, and so on. That's not the hardest part. And even this DJ... OK, he mixes well, it's very clean, there are no problems... But he has 5,000 vinyl records at home. And how does he choose among the 5,000, what he's going to play in Paris, in Berlin... Actually, it's like in classical music, you go to a Mozart concert, everyone shows up, and then you only play what's listed in the... it's not even a lineup, but just a list of tracks. And if the audience isn't happy, well, fuck off! Whereas a DJ sees, ah, Mozart doesn't seem to be working. Hop! He switches to Beethoven or Bach. And I find that quite mind-blowing, and something that doesn't exist elsewhere in the music world. Afterward, he's not at all a composer, nor really a mega-guitarist, a pianist, etc.
Audience: I wonder if, actually, if DJs or producers don't play instruments, music... Can they be good at production?
Patrick THÉVENIN: In fact, are the people you see, your hero, is he primarily a DJ? And then he's in the studio... Or nowadays, does he have to release a record to get known and to get booked?
Anatoly IVANOV: Exactly what you just said. He's a pure DJ, meaning he's first and foremost a selector, curator, and entertainer who plays for people, to make them feel good, and to introduce them to new tracks. Because there were people who came right up to me today, asking: "What's this track? I've never heard it before." So it's really his job to make people discover new things. And then, he released his own tracks, as a composer. But honestly, that's not his priority. It's more the way the industry works, which I find very twisted, but that's how it is, and you have to release your stuff to let people know you're good.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Do you really feel like he's introducing new things? Often, these are records that exist in 15 copies, that are mixed, so you don't know the name, you don't know the title...
Anatoly IVANOV: Well, the moment you heard it, you discovered it, right?
Patrick THÉVENIN: In fact, we need DJs as intermediaries? When you say curator, you mean intermediaries.
Anatoly IVANOV: Absolutely. Because what they do is spend weeks, months, years listening to terrible stuff. I mean, it's unlistenable. I tried listening to what he listens to, just by plugging in my headphones, on Juno or on Decks... Uh... my brain was smoking, because... It's unlistenable. It's really bad music.
Audience: Is that why they've also developed a very, very fast way of listening to it, like... In a way, it's a gift of... listening to 15 seconds of a record in different spots and knowing if it has potential.
Anatoly IVANOV: I don't know, because I listen even faster than he does, that DJ. I completely blew his mind when I told him, for the film, it's very simple, we have to listen to the 5,000 vinyl albums you have in your collection to choose the tracks we're going to keep in the film. And he said, "Ha ha ha, yeah right!" Because he thought I was telling him nonsense. But I arrived in Moscow, telling him "Alright, let's start with record number 1. He said: "No, really?!" But first, he asked me: "Do you like this? And this?" And I told him: "No, no, no. Next, next, next." So, I went through more than half of his collection, telling him: listen, this doesn't work. [laughs] I need even less time than a DJ. Because I have a very clear vision for the film. I'm not thinking about a club audience at all, which is very different.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Compared to what you imagined being a DJ and what you're doing today by touring festivals and all that, is it what you expected? Or were you surprised by reality?
DJ Simo Cell (Simon AUSSEL) The fatigue, it's... It's a bit surprising. We imagine it, of course, but it's really hard because there's the stress and the fatigue, and as a result, you're a bit... When you're on edge, it's complicated to manage both. Chaining... Regarding being a DJ, we don't travel. We do adjustments, sometimes. I played in Lithuania. I stayed less than 24 hours. I played for an hour in a club. I didn't visit Lithuania. Besides, I'm a serious person, so I knew I didn't want to party too much. I wasn't too surprised. For me, where I focus is really on my work. Even though it's my passion, I know I have to be careful because you can lose control, it can happen quickly. There are quite a few who are in the final round. Even if it disappears for a while, it's still big.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Anatoly, is this something you've encountered? A younger generation of DJs who are much more clean.
Anatoly IVANOV: I don't think it's a question of generation, it depends on the person. I would say it's a really personal choice for each DJ. Some rely on chemicals, on alcohol. Some say, "I won't last until I'm 45."
Audience: The question I had was, when you've completely failed, for 3-4-6-9-10 years nothing happens, you feel like a complete failure, what do you do then?
DJ Simo Cell (Simon AUSSEL) I question myself a lot. No, but it's true that sometimes you can try everything you want. It just doesn't work. There are phases. You can do whatever you want. You shouldn't completely demoralize yourself either. I think it can happen, actually.
Patrick THÉVENIN: It's funny in this film about the daily life of a DJ, but also the "side things." He doesn't party too much. He goes to the afterparty. He's like you, Simon. He doesn't have tattoos.
Anatoly IVANOV: Besides, I specifically wanted to show parties that went very, very well, average parties, and some clubs... Me, as a director, thinking about cinema, the visual results, I would have cut them in editing. Because they didn't work. But in my documentary, I thought it was important to show that it doesn't work every time for a DJ. It's not 100% full house every time.
DJ Busy P (Pierre WINTER) It reminds me... it's very interesting. I just entered a debate. "Eden," the film by Mia HANSEN-LØVE. How I was really touched by this film. Even if it flopped in theaters. I was quite touched by this film. And the choice to talk about the life of Sven Løve, who ultimately had ups and downs. And who ends quite badly. Around him, everyone exploded. Everyone had a career that continues to this day. It's very courageous and super interesting. I recently talked about it with a journalist who wanted to write an article about the life of DJs. I made the choice to always be surrounded, not to travel alone anymore. It's a very personal choice. The solitude of a DJ, even if we have quite pleasant lives and all that, it's not always very fun.
Anatoly IVANOV: Actually, it's much more universal than I thought. There are a lot of businessmen who have a very similar job. That is, they spend weeks traveling, and they have the same feelings. I'm not wary of people who discovered techno music for the first time by watching this film. But guys who work in consulting and legal firms, in business law. And they write to me saying "This is my real life!" "Well, what do you do?" "Nothing musical at all. But the solitude, the disorientation, and the fact of being..." Actually, it's a paradox. You're surrounded by lots of people, all smiling, all quite drunk, etc. But we're not friends. You feel... Yes, there are really bodies. But we're all alone.
DJ Busy P (Pierre WINTER) Me, I make friends, I admit... I have lots of friends.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Your friends, compared to the idea of being a DJ or a consultant guy... When you tour a lot, it's not, well, not the same!
DJ Busy P (Pierre WINTER) It depends. Some members, we travel as a group. We easily make connections with the locals. No, but it's a very serious topic. Especially frustration. You share with me what I've been experiencing for about thirty years. Indeed, there's a thing, a disconnect between what people think of our lives, between jumping on a plane one day to Tokyo, the next day to Barcelona, I don't know where. Indeed, there's extreme and very deep frustration, thinking that we, it happened to us on trips to Bali, for example. It's pretty paradisiacal to go to Bali, it's a trip of a lifetime for a normal person. You think: damn! You think, well, I'm pretty normal, and besides, I was with my girlfriend in Bali, applause for going on vacation with her. And yet it happened to us to go to Bali for one night, to mix like idiots in a club in Bali, and the next day in Tokyo, and the day after in Singapore. And there's something sick. Plus, now, with social networks, we review and share that... But fifteen years ago, we didn't have that. And so, there is indeed a certain frustration for the DJ. I don't know if we're finally talking about it.
Anatoly IVANOV: Actually, in the film, that's what I show. The guy is on a train, and you see behind one of the most magnificent landscapes, the Fribourg Alps. What does he do? He crashes. He sleeps. He's there. He's on a plane. There are monster lights, sunset... The guy, he sleeps. And actually, it's a state where, frankly, he doesn't care if he's in a completely isolated cabin, without a window or with a view of... sea, forest, etc. He just wants to sleep, eat. Sleep, eat.
Patrick THÉVENIN: How do you manage your sleep? How do you sleep? Can you sleep anywhere, anytime?
DJ Simo Cell (Simon AUSSEL) Oh yes, I'm lucky to be able to sleep anywhere.
Patrick THÉVENIN: Is it something you learn?
DJ Simo Cell (Simon AUSSEL) It's a bit harder... But I know I can settle anywhere on the jet. Hop! It's 2 hours, usually.
Anatoly IVANOV: It's really a genetic selection. DJs are genetically selected. No, but I couldn't do it like him. That is, I arrive in more or less the same time slots, the same seats, the same conditions. I was like, no, I can't sleep. Whereas the guy — 2 minutes, tops — he's asleep. Me, I do this, I sleep a little here. I sleep a little there.
Patrick THÉVENIN: There's something in your film, the DJ is always alone. And you always have this impression of a summer camp; it seems you wouldn't like to have that void, always alone. How do you explain this...
DJ Busy P (Pierre WINTER) I continue with today's idea. It's the idea of the series. It's the idea of a book, isn't it? It's stories. I think it's a matter of education and musical culture. I was fascinated by a Guns N' Roses tour in a tour bus, with people getting on the bus and dropping off in the next town. It's the kind of thing that... I love it, by the way, I'm not going to criticize them because I'm an absolute fan of the band Air. They themselves made a sublime DVD about their tour called "Air: Eating, Sleeping, Waiting and Playing" which ultimately tells — I don't know if you've seen it — the super-boring side of an Air tour. Well, again, I love it, I'm patient, but the guys were bored. While we, indeed, had quite a few little anecdotes on tour. We made a documentary, where, indeed, the boys end up in prison.
Anatoly IVANOV: But for me, it was a huge problem because on one hand, I had to convey this experience of "we're bored, we're bored, boring, boring, boring" and at the same time, I had to make a film that's marketable, that mustn't be boring. That is, you go to Hollywood, and you say, "Oh, I want to make a super boring movie!" And they'd say, "Hey, are you out of your mind?!" So, it's really a rather delicate balance between conveying the right impression of the real experience of a real DJ and making a film.
Patrick THÉVENIN: How long did you shoot it?
Anatoly IVANOV: Well, the shooting itself, it was a year. So, we started in July-August 2011 and finished in early July 2012. Really, really our production. Let's say, in the case of this film, it was only possible because we had previously worked on a photo report. So, we knew each other a little bit like friends. After that, during the shoot, it was much more... Let's say it was quite useful to be always together with a camera that works and sometimes doesn't work. What do I cut? What don't I cut? I didn't want to make a reality show either. The guy is pissing, I don't know, complaining about his mother, or stuff... Well, no American bad taste. Yeah! The Scoop of the Century. And what happens in the US with EDM, I think it's mostly a taste and education problem. It's exactly the same thing in the US film industry. A lot of money is pumped into marketing without necessarily educating people first. And then people can talk technically, no matter what. 50 million. 300 million.
Audience: I had a question about how you live with a family? I don't know if a girl was in your subject or not?
Anatoly IVANOV: Yes, he doesn't have a family. Because the girls who come to this DJ's place anyway, or to other DJs I had met, very similar... They arrive and see a ton of vinyl, a mattress, and a guy who knows how to cook, who knows how to clean his clothes. And the girls, they realize that, in fact, his wife is already there. It's the pile of vinyl, and he's completely obsessed with what he does. So the woman will always be in second place. It's quite universal for men who have a creative job, all-in, monomaniacal, where you're forced to commit 100%.
Audience: Maybe to tell you also about the solitude of the DJ, in the end. About the solitude of the DJ, because it spun alone, and it's over. Isn't that what eventually takes over family life?
Anatoly IVANOV: It's the art that takes over the rest. Those are the priorities. Ideally, it would be a couple of DJs who play back-to-back, or, I don't know, a DJ plus a DJ manager who are a couple. But the problem is the same. The problem is exactly the same for photographers, directors, cinematographers, painters. It's not something specific to DJs. But there's still a lot to do. Not everyone knows techno music. When we sent our film to film festivals, people would come and say "What the hell?!" It was the first time they heard such sounds. Education should continue, continue, continue.
DJ Busy P (Pierre WINTER) The best example we have, very concretely, because Laurent Garnier plays here. Laurent, for example, is struggling to finance his film. He's been on a long project for a few years. Laurent Garnier, and I saw him at Sónar a month ago, the guy fills the venues. And you're right, there's still work to do. And precisely, I think that's what DJs want, it's really the education they desire.
DJ Simo Cell (Simon AUSSEL) That's it, it's obvious, but at the same time, there's really a core with education. That's it, I think, it's really about educating your identity. It's about doing good both for yourself and for making techno recognized. Trying to create a taste.
/ THE PEACOCK SOCIETY FESTIVAL / 2016-07-17
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